tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post4358135175264110..comments2024-02-03T17:54:52.026-08:00Comments on Eastern Christian Insights: Why Orthodox Young People Fall Away: A Prophetic Word from Fr. Steven Salaris Father Philip LeMastershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15802162495250481325noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-39915572657287982582019-03-24T17:13:27.159-07:002019-03-24T17:13:27.159-07:00Fr. Steven, I suspect your first point is a primar...Fr. Steven, I suspect your first point is a primary one. I attend an Antiochian OC in Salt Lake City which is 60-70 percent converts -- from agnostics and former skeptics to Catholics, Anglicans, Mormons, Lutherans to Pentecostals (by former background), Baptists and Evangelicals. Though our church began with a heavy Russian, Serbian and Arabic foundation (and all those are still represented), it is truly an "American" Orthodox family today. Our Greek brothers and sisters are wonderful, their priests devoted, but they, by their own admission, struggle with the ethnic enclave mentality. There is a spirit of panorthodoxy, though, in Utah with Antiochian, Greek, Russian, Serbian Orthodox fellowshipping. Robert E. Mimshttps://remims53.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-87484129462401214172017-11-24T23:41:25.163-08:002017-11-24T23:41:25.163-08:00**Revised Correction: Because it is "too hard...**Revised Correction: Because it is "too hard", because it "requires discipline", because learning to truly understand obedience and love for God through prayer, fasting, confession, and communion requires sacrifice to abandon secularity and to follow in the footsteps of Christ. We as Americans have become lazy, spoiled, and conformed to a system that embraces hedonistic ideologies and have become accustomed to the shopping model in finding what fits our needs at the least cost. Nevertheless, this is common phenomenon across the globe, and an excuse for many across cultures to abandon God for the sake of giving into temptation, fear, confusion, and lack of education. This is indicative that we continue to live in an era in which individuals (young and old) choose not to follow the true Christ for the sake of the quick and easy "fast food" approach to Christianity by only accepting the parts that make us feel good and abandoning the necessary components that requires us to defeat the demons of the flesh that cling onto and suffocate the inner spirit. Where is the thirst for a more profound intercession relationship with God? First was the dispute for the time of the service, then came the dispute of the language, followed with the presentation of music wherein the adoption of the organ became more of a popular choice to allow converts to feel more adapted to something that they were already accustomed in hearing. Then came the presentation (or lack thereof) to say "this is not a God that I can connect with, but the Baptist Church down the road has a fast and upbeat pastor that sings with the rock band every Sunday at a time that is convenient for me and professes the theology that makes sense with my interpretation of the world." I am an Orthodox Christian, not by force, not by family, but by the self-abandonment of the corruptible through the baptism in Christ, through confession and suffering in Christ, and for the salvation of the mind, soul, and body. Living a Christian life was not supposed to be easy, and yet we only want to hear the reassuring lie that "once saved, always saved and this is enough." I choose not to follow hedonistic reassurance, and as a young individual (under 30), I do what is necessary, regardless of difficulty to struggle and build and relationship with God, even if that means stumbling on the ladder of divine ascent. I find my faults, I go to the hospital for the soul, and I do what is necessary to bring myself closer to God; not to curse Him, not to hate Him, and not to think that He will turn His back on me. We are unworthy, and we must be thankful for all things that brings us closer to Him, in punishment and in love! Without God, nothing is possible, but through Him, everything is possible!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-703046042974310172014-11-02T20:33:56.929-08:002014-11-02T20:33:56.929-08:00Great article! I agree with everything said, but e...Great article! I agree with everything said, but especially with the personal relationship with Jesus part. All the icons, incense, bells and whistles are there for one reason: to lead he soul into a personal encounter with God that will form the basis for a personal, intimate relationship with the Lord.<br />Without that, it's just a place to go on Sundays.<br /><br />I think we also need to face the fact that the culture opposes us.<br />The culture is under the thumb of<br />a pseudo-religion that worships nature, self and sexual frenzy, and which is fueled by human sacrifice. Every official organ of<br />our culture, from the public schools and the state universities to the news and <br />entertainment media, systematically indoctrinate our young (and not-so-young) people<br />into this religion, and do all they can to pry them away from morality, the natural law and even objective reality as a concept.<br /><br />Christians need to bne counter-cultural, to embrace our children and each other, and teach that how<br />we live, even how we vote. reflect<br />what we believe. There are Christian cultural values, and Christian responses to them. We<br />need to be aware of these. <br /><br />Our job here is to redeem the surrounding culture, not to join it. We must bring ourselves, our children and each other to realize we are ambassadors from another Kingdom, and that we are<br />commanded to workl for the salvation of souls other than our<br />own.Fr. James Rossellihttp://www.arimatheachurch.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-89762837282452799942014-10-26T22:45:20.845-07:002014-10-26T22:45:20.845-07:00I agree with everything but #1, I've always be...I agree with everything but #1, I've always been a fan of the thees and thous, and I considered going to a more ethnic parish so I can learn the Liturgy in Greek (my Antiochian parish uses English almost exclusively). It's very easy to get a copy of the Liturgy in English, read through it at home, and then enjoy the service in any another language.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-6751619814477784052014-10-26T22:42:00.941-07:002014-10-26T22:42:00.941-07:00This article should be read regularly at Episcopal...This article should be read regularly at Episcopal Assembly meetings and in all jurisdictions as well as in all seminaries. Hurray for Frs. Steven and Philip! It is spot on! They get it!Eric's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10525070091917789025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-52589436235573457962014-10-24T05:05:56.967-07:002014-10-24T05:05:56.967-07:00I for one came back to the church after many years...I for one came back to the church after many years away. I see your point and agree the article hit the so called nail on the head. I love my faith and my parish, I do see the younger members not attending unless it is a holiday. What a shame as I come home every Sunday feeling the love God in me. I am blessed by the fellowship I encounter every Sunday I attend.Diane Stanesicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-59842235989508878982014-10-22T21:47:07.316-07:002014-10-22T21:47:07.316-07:00The issues you brought up are very tru and need to...The issues you brought up are very tru and need to be addressed. You might want to talk to your priest about these issues, and who knows something may happen and make going to church for you and someone else more worthwhile.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11384079579904679338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-90052040545563009782014-10-22T16:37:56.831-07:002014-10-22T16:37:56.831-07:00I was baptised Orthodox, raised in Catholicism, be...I was baptised Orthodox, raised in Catholicism, became Agnostic and discovered Orthodoxy in my 20's. I actually enjoy the liturgical languages of Arabic, Greek, and Shakespearen English. Yet, I do know what you are saying. I learned Arabic in my 20's and have continued learning it since it has enhanced my knowledge and spirituality. Yet, I know this is not true for others. I have no explanation. I directed the Sunday School at my church for nearly a decade and I do not see the children adults as regular attendees. We see them return for marriages, their children's baptisms, deaths, etc. We need heavy dosage of stewardship and continually evangelism. Most importantly, prayers.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10782187064808476881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-14846188501289253122014-10-22T14:39:30.354-07:002014-10-22T14:39:30.354-07:00This article should be distributed to each of the ...This article should be distributed to each of the Orthodox Hierarchy in North America perhaps formally to the Committees for Church and Society and for Pastoral Practices. All of the Hypothesis have validity but for me #1 stands out personally as a challenge and stumbling block (ironic since it was originally foolishness to the Greeks but in the 21st century has become stumbling block to them), but I think the real issue is ENTIRELY #5. Orthodox Christianity is the worship of God in Spirit and in Truth which is to worship God in Trinity; Father, Son (Truth) and Holy Spirit (Spirit). By example it is personal and relational evidenced perfectly in the Holy Trinity where love is relational between Persons. If we do not personally love God fully and wholly then nothing matters and nothing will ever work. We must love Christ first and foremost, and also love our neighbour (for as St. John says those who do not love their neighbour but say they love God are liars for if you do not love your neighbour who you can see, how can you love God who you do not see. If we were Christians (let alone true Orthodox Christians) our love would illumine and inform all of these other Hypotheses 1-5. As St Seraphim of Sarov so famously proclaimed that if one person acquires the Holy Spirit a thousand around him will be illumined. We must each become illumined so we can see clearly to take those specks out of our brethren’s eyes. May they not perish because of us sinners…Chris Nicholasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-90512463740488201242014-10-22T12:52:59.529-07:002014-10-22T12:52:59.529-07:00I always hear the condemnations of the ethnic lang...I always hear the condemnations of the ethnic languages but they're beautiful. My Greek is pretty limited but I would rather hear and sing a hymn in English once, to understand it, and Greek every other time to appreciate the beauty and feel as though I'm offering up more suitable praise to God than the butchered, awkward English translations. And I had so many Greek friends growing up, when I was a kid and didn't fully understand my faith, and church was where I saw them. For years I came to see my friends that I would never have known otherwise, and over those years of being brought to church for fellowship I came to grow in my faith. Our churches should never be exclusive, but to strip away the cultural aspects would be to lose a beautifu,l enriching, and community-binding part of our lives. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-53621402250751830272014-10-22T10:40:32.431-07:002014-10-22T10:40:32.431-07:00I too left orthodoxy because of a few reasons you ...I too left orthodoxy because of a few reasons you pointed out. My parents divorced and I wanted so badly to run to the church for compassion. Instead all I was met with was pointing fingers and bad-mouthing. I would also know all the words during the service and knew exactly how long until the service was over. I, too, didn't understand what was being said. Another thing that irritated me was the church begging for money to change out things such as the wooden alter to a marble alter instead of being satisfied with a great wooden alter and helping people that truly needed help. The rules among rules make it impossible for you to live without guilt and the feeling of never measuring up. I know I'm not perfect, but I don't need it drilled in each and every Sunday. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-14639414138669482802014-10-22T09:29:37.519-07:002014-10-22T09:29:37.519-07:00You may want to consider this study within the con...You may want to consider this study within the context of your research.<br /><br />http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/OrthChurchFullReport.pdfAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07819149973438292699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-34163034879128774842014-10-22T09:25:22.664-07:002014-10-22T09:25:22.664-07:00I have found that it depends entirely on which Ort...I have found that it depends entirely on which Orthodox church. I am familiar with an Antiochian parish in a college town that has many devout members from the college. The church community itself is alive and full of vitality. Of course, all services are in English. It is a small community, about 50 people who show up regularly, which keeps it close and personal. The priest goes the extra mile, in the services and with the parishioners, teaching, praying for them, letting them know they are loved. After every liturgy, members gather around on the carpet and talk. People ask for prayers or blessings for this or that. Birthdays, anniversaries, name days, travel, sickness, buying or selling their homes, etc., becomes everyone’s business there. It is a public forum where people share what is going on and what their needs are. <br /><br /> Everyone helps with the work: the soup dinners, vespers six nights a week (sometimes just done by the college students if no one else can be there). It is a strong and vital community. In my mind, it is religion at it’s best. <br /><br />Personally, I think that having some passionate college students in the parish is a great model for the children. They can look ahead to their college years with the knowledge that it’s “cool” to go to church, even during college. But keeping the college students involved takes a lot of the priest’s time, educating them, encouraging their reading, their involvement, personal counseling, etc. College is a time that kids are firming up their values for life, and they are passionate about whatever they get involved in. They are seeking healthy models. Those models must be joyful, caring, reaching out, supportive of their many struggles at that time of life. <br /><br />I also know a larger church with ethnic roots, but also many members from outside that ethnic group. Because there are so many members now who are not from the original ethnic group, most services are done about 2/3 in English. It is also quite a vital community, although I think when churches get too big, it is more difficult to maintain that sense of tight community. IT’s just more difficult for the priest to have enough time to be more involved with everyone, and for everyone to know each other. <br /><br />I don’t know what the magic ingredients are. But certainly English, relevant sermons, friendliness after liturgy, on-going education about why we do what we do, etc., are important. There is so much to learn in Orthodoxy, it can be overwhelming, or it can hold one’s interest forever…. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-10831924140265914252014-10-22T09:24:40.505-07:002014-10-22T09:24:40.505-07:00I appreciate your comments.
The realities are a l...I appreciate your comments.<br /><br />The realities are a little more complicated - <br /><br />perhaps some research will be of assistance<br /><br />http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/OrthChurchFullReport.pdfAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07819149973438292699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-64397811218472470992014-04-07T14:27:37.978-07:002014-04-07T14:27:37.978-07:00I am one of the 60% that you are talking about. M...I am one of the 60% that you are talking about. More accurately, I’m sitting on the fence and don’t know if I’ll be able to continue with Orthodoxy or move onto something else. More than likely, my time with the Orthodox church has come to a close. <br /><br />First, the ethnic club. I am of Greek descent (3rd or 4th generation depending on which grandparent you count from), but I am not Greek. I don’t speak Greek. I’ve never been to Greece. I can’t do traditional dances. No offense to the Greeks – but I’m not interested in these things. I’m an American. When I go to a church and everything is in Greek, I feel like a tourist, not a parishioner. I feel like I should be taking photos, not worshipping. When I go to the coffee hour and everyone is speaking Greek, I feel left out. I’m stuck just standing in the corner and eating doughnuts. I’m giving up 25% of my weekend for this?<br /><br />Second, I don’t care how strapped for cash you are. Community comes first, not money. When I go to a church, I want to feel accepted as a member of the community. I want to know that I have friends there who are interested in me beyond the obligatory 5 minutes of small talk. Instead, within a month’s time I almost invariably get a sales pitch. Give us money for this or that. Sign up to help with the festival. I want to feel that I’m a member of the community _first_ and not just a pair of hands or an ATM. I want to help, but I don’t want to feel like I’m being used.<br /><br />Third, there is nothing for young professionals. I look around the church and I see lots of kids, lots of old people, and a not insignificant number of young families. But what about those people who have graduated college but haven’t gotten married and started a family? They are few and far between. The church has GOYA for the young and Philoptocos for the old ladies. But there is nothing for my peer group.<br /> <br />Fourth, intolerance for inter-faith or inter-religious marriages. I understand the stated theological reasons for this, but in America where most of the population is anything other than Orthodox, this is a crushing restriction. The reality is that I will probably marry a non-Christian. If she is aligned with me on every value other than religion, then religion will get dropped. It’s not like there is much for me in the church anyway (see above). I would like my kids to be baptized Orthodox. I didn’t grow up in an Orthodox church. The nearest one was a 2 hour drive from where we lived. But later in life the church was there for me when I needed it. I would like the church to be there for my kids in the future when/if they ever need it. But I’m not even sure if the church would allow this.<br /><br />I want to be a member of something. Preferably something more traditional as that fits my personality and values better. But as things stand now, I feel like I’m slowly being forced out.<br />VGAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1908072176406124456.post-72682969124367038862013-09-28T14:23:15.369-07:002013-09-28T14:23:15.369-07:00Great article. For me, it's 1,4 and 5. I am ...Great article. For me, it's 1,4 and 5. I am a five year convert, but I've been struggling for half that time. Orthodoxy is almost TOO full. I feel like I completely lost sight of Jesus a long time ago for all the "extra" stuff.<br /><br />I also struggle with my church being a Greek culture club. Over five years at that church and someone asked me if it was my first time there on Sunday, when I sat on the other side of the room than I usually do... I will always be an outsider there. <br /><br />I am actually missing Protestant Sunday School classes. My kids are in their second year of Sunday School and their first ever Sunday School lesson was cutting out saints and gluing them in the appropriate places on the iconostasis.<br /><br />They learn more about Jesus at their preschool in the Protestant church up the road than they do in Orthodox Sunday School, where they mostly learn the mechanics of Orthodoxy.Snownoreply@blogger.com